Curse

Tyla · Apr 24, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

On the flip side, someone tried buying a -5/20% off me for 500g today.

Either people have realised how bad it is, or he just doesn't go with the trade.

Avarre · Apr 24, 2008, 11:44 AM // 11:44

One thing I learned from online games with economies is the most valuable tool to a new player is having access to an accurate price list. If you don't take the effort to get one (either through asking people or observing trade) then your penalty is potentially getting unfavorable deals.

The people who benefit from this are doing nothing wrong, unless they're actively giving misinformation to trick the player out of their item/gold.

IslandHermet · Apr 24, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I do not care if the person is a noob or a pro, if they want to sell a item for dirt cheap or they do not know the price and have not asked anyone for a PC, I see no harm in buying the item for its low price.

Ctb · Apr 24, 2008, 11:53 AM // 11:53

If you're an asshole and don't have any qualms about taking advantage of people in a video game, sure. There's no "rule" against it, or anything, but I'd argue that it's morally wrong, for whatever morality in a video game is worth.

It's a really a matter of whether it bothers YOU or not.

Quote:

No man's knowledge can go beyond his experience.

Wouldn't that imply that there's no purpose to trying to teach someone anything, and that you ought to just use the "sink or swim" method of learning in everything you do and never listen to anybody else's experiences?

It's even somewhat relevant to the topic of the thread!

makosi · Apr 24, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

Video games are all about indulgence, after all.

I agree. I take great satisfaction in killing large mobs in GW, or doing virtually anything in games like the GTA series. Virtual smashing, klling and stealing feels great because it is experiencing things I can't in the real world, due to laws and morality, with no negative consequences affecting myself or others.

Lowball merchanting is indulgence at the expense of other people, which I believe is somewhat unethical.

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

It's even somewhat relevant to the topic of the thread!

Once again, why are you getting so heavy about it? It's just a game.

-

I'll leave it here. There's a much better quote that fits here, it's even more relevant than Locke... it's something about arguing on the internet, I don't want to find it cause it'll relate to me

Instead I'll bow out and pretend I'm above it all. Have fun <3

Kashrlyyk · Apr 24, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I disagree. A proper developed sense knows when it matters and when it does not. Video games are all about indulgence, after all. (see below)

Video games are about fun. Anyone who thinks, that hurting someone elses fun for your own personal gain, is ok, is an arse. No discussion needed and please stop the excuses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

...
Video games are here for our indulgence, nothing more. You can afford to allow yourself the indulgence of being greedy in a video game, of being violent of lying of cheating and stealing... none of it is real and has no (except perhaps for some truly extreme conditions) actual negative effect on anyones lives.

Are you that ignorant?? That stupid???

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

A persons actions in game are in no way a direct translation of their real world self. Adhering to a strict moral code in game and not taking items for less than they could potentially be sold does not make you a better person than those that do, not in the slightest.

Yes, there is the answer, you are. Not taking advantage of people no matter where, makes me a better person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

One thing I learned from online games with economies is the most valuable tool to a new player is having access to an accurate price list. If you don't take the effort to get one (either through asking people or observing trade) then your penalty is potentially getting unfavorable deals.

Any reason why people that know the real price shouldn´t just tell it?? Does it hurt to be nice to people??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The people who benefit from this are doing nothing wrong, unless they're actively giving misinformation to trick the player out of their item/gold.

They are withholding informations for their own personal gain. If you can help someone, is there any reason to not do it?

zwei2stein · Apr 24, 2008, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Well, imagine what you are doing to person by confronting them about their sale prices:

* You are depriving them from fast money they wanted and though is fair.
* You also point out their lack of knowledge, few people online react nicely to that, and even people who do get frustrated as result.
* You are in danger providing them wrong or inaccurate info by accident, and they would end up trying to sell items overpriced, getting galled noob and frustrated.
* Cheap immediate sale and them heading back to killing grounds v.s. actual price but longer time taking sale can actually end up in them making less money overall. Anyone can tell you that its better to sell 5k weapon for 1k immediately and make someone happy over great deal, than wasting hour getting it sold for 5k.

Besides, how would you convince someone that item they were trying to basically give away without success for some time is really worth a lot more?

If you want to be ethical, sure, pass great deal. I just want to see you walking into hypermarket and lecture staff about real value of their "bargain" stuff.

Besides, in order to make stuff cheaper, you need people who sell under "market" price. If all "help em" people watched matket over and were successful at convincing people to sell for more, we would all still be buying 30hp upgrades for 70k a piece.

Just consider effects on market when someone sells 70k worth item for, say, 30k. Everyone who saw him saw price fall and is less likely to pay full price, rest of market slowly adjusts. Even someone who exploited him would sell under market price to ensure fast profit and not being stuck with that item.

BenjZee · Apr 24, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

i dont see not
its up to the trader to set a price. msot people jsut set prices around similar items which the price was create by someone random to be honest.

its only a game really so its just their loss, they havent exactly lost much but a peice of data

Not like they got ripped off in real life and it seriously effects them. surely ill pitty them and feel sorry because they could get more but none of us have done wrong.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 24, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

..blabla.

You thick on purpose?? Just tell them where they can look up the real price! Nothing else is needed.

Quote:

It is just a game.

I love that "argument". The apostrophs are there for a reason, because it is a "killer argument", a shut up, not an argument.

Let´s look at all the uses for it:
You got unjustly banned? Forget the appeal! Support will answer with: It is just a game! Move on!
PvP balance? Not needed! It is just a game!
"Justified" bans?? Unban everyone! If it is just a game, why should bug exploiting or botting be punished?
Report system?? Away with it! It is just a game. Leech and grief as much as you want!!
RMT? Wait, REAL MONEY TRADE??? OMG, could it be it is not just a game?

wilq · Apr 24, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Yes, ignorance is not an excuse.

Avarre · Apr 24, 2008, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Any reason why people that know the real price shouldn´t just tell it?? Does it hurt to be nice to people??

It is much better for people to tell new player prices, yes. But having been on both sides of this at various points, I can say that you should never, ever expect to be held up on the kindness of others and their willingness to help at their own loss. It's up to the new player to develop and learn as much as possible to do well, because that is the only way they can be completely sure.

tmakinen · Apr 24, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

The "it's just a game" excuse is the worst that I've seen so far. Just tell me, if one cannot be trusted to do the decent thing in a game where any ill-gotten gains are completely intangible, how is one supposed to be trusted in real life where underhanded acts may provide actual advantages? And if the loss suffered by the uninformed seller is negligible, then so is the gain of the morally challenged whose only real gain is thus the satisfaction of doing the wrong thing.

Your character is revealed not when you do the right thing because you don't have a realistic chance of doing the wrong thing and getting away with it, but when you do the right thing for the sole reward of doing the right thing.

Lord Sojar · Apr 24, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Depends on 2 things.

If the person is clearly a new player (1k armor, lacks deeper understanding of the game) I will pay them while still getting a good deal.

If they are decked out in 15k armor, with greens, and it appears they have been playing a while, then no, they are probably an ebayer and don't understand the market at all. I will rob them blind.

I do not take money from new players, that is cruel and unusual. Shame on the rest of you.

Lykan · Apr 24, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

It's a really a matter of whether it bothers YOU or not.

Not in the slightest

I MP I · Apr 24, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

mmmmmm power trading. It is more than ok to buy expensive items for cheap from noobs. Yes I've done it millions of times and have sold items for 10-50 times what I paid. Lets face it, it's easy to do research on items in this game. Some people either are too lazy or don't care. That's what makes it all good.

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The "it's just a game" excuse is the worst that I've seen so far. Just tell me, if one cannot be trusted to do the decent thing in a game where any ill-gotten gains are completely intangible, how is one supposed to be trusted in real life where underhanded acts may provide actual advantages? And if the loss suffered by the uninformed seller is negligible, then so is the gain of the morally challenged whose only real gain is thus the satisfaction of doing the wrong thing.

Actions in game are not an explicit link to Real Life, not in the slightest. You guys really need to lighten up about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Your character is revealed not when you do the right thing because you don't have a realistic chance of doing the wrong thing and getting away with it, but when you do the right thing for the sole reward of doing the right thing.

A fair point, if it were not a game. But it is just a game, and however cheap you assume that excuse to be, the links to actual negative are still tenuous.

I might actually ask for a mini ban... this thread is becoming something of an impulsion :/

Funk ee Monk ee · Apr 24, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The "it's just a game" excuse is the worst that I've seen so far. Just tell me, if one cannot be trusted to do the decent thing in a game where any ill-gotten gains are completely intangible, how is one supposed to be trusted in real life where underhanded acts may provide actual advantages?

QFT! I see these idiots on reality shows (Survivor, Big Brother, etc) constantly giving the excuse 'it's just a game, I'm not like that in real life.' Absolute BS there. Character is character and lack thereof is lack thereof regardless of where it is displayed.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 24, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It is much better for people to tell new player prices, yes. But having been on both sides of this at various points, I can say that you should never, ever expect to be held up on the kindness of others and their willingness to help at their own loss. It's up to the new player to develop and learn as much as possible to do well, because that is the only way they can be completely sure.

After Avarres help with some words, I have to agree.

cataphract · Apr 24, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

Not true. There is a line people would be very unwilling to cross in RL that they wouldn't think twice about in game as there are no truly negative outcomes.

That's the whole point - you're acting like a prick just because you can. And just because you can does not mean you should and it certainly does not make it okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I can see why you'd cling to such morality in game though and I'm sorry I still see little problem with playing the market the way I have done, I wish I could be a better person. I really do.

I do not "cling" to anything, it's the way I am and the way I live my life.